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Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Discuss and Place articles and videos with regards to Zeitgeist / Resource Based Economy Movements.

Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:48 pm

Paradise Cities are Not the Solution


Jan 31, '11 11:34 PM for everyone


There is Not Enough being said about the actual practical steps to Change this world - People are still being driven by techno-dreams without even looking at the actual needs and requirements in this world - we cannot allow ourselves to be driven by nice picture presentations of a utopia world that's currently being assessed and created for only a few thousand of people living in an Alternate Reality in one of these super jetsons-like cities that even the least gullible person would drop their jaw at - that is quite a clever way to go humans! Going once again for the nice picture presentation, the nice production of a movie as an ideal without taking the Practical Living Self-Change as that which each individual must take to be able to first Start LIVING within themselves!!!

We've been duped all the way! and we are still falling for the same shit

Man! lol - I've just reviewed some video responses to the Zeitgeist Movie: Moving Forward and no one is seeing the basic COMMON SENSE POINT:

WE have to Begin with Changing Ourselves First before even considering the rest of what's being said and proposed as something that is possible-

We have to take on the Human Being through an extensive Re-Education, Re-Alignment program to be able to only then even think of being able to coexist in such marvelous futuristic cities that I am still wondering where the hell do they plan to get their money from? - because if they wanna get rid of money, then how come? for all that technology? Come on, selling tshirts? Dvd's for 5 bucks? I doubt so.

Ok. Next point

We know how humans are being attracted to all new 'devices/gadgets/technology' all of that is like honey to the eyes of a regular high-tech first world society person -

Now, how on Earth can one even Dare to present these type of super techno-heaven to people that are living in tent-mazes with no food, no sewage, no drain, no potable water, no proper housing and dying from cholera as well as having tons and tons of rubble that would only take millions to actually "get rid of" from the island in Haiti - seriously - Unless this super-plan is willing to benefit those people and many other billions in this world living in similar - or even worse- conditions, we cannot SEE any EQUALITY within the current "solution" proposed by the coalition of Zeitgeist Movement and Venus Project - Fresco's ideology works nicely in the head and is backed up by his life-experience, he's got some common sense but still missing the most important point: Re-Education - and obviously if he missed the point, by default Peter Joseph has missed it as well.

If they 'think' they have considered 'Human Nature' I can assure you: they Haven't actually considered Human Nature at all.

What's being described in the movie is nothing but facts that we can all get to know about if doing proper research - which is obviously well done as Peter Joseph has had the money, the time, the education and the sources to educate himself within the current existent knowledge of how the system works, he is well self-read in economics - THOUGH the very basic points are missed because the knowledge they're basing their entire system upon is limited to only the knowledge existent within this world as the collection of knowledge created by human beings = equally enslaved and missing the same point which has to do with the very mind that's creating such knowledge and possible solutions.

We see and realize that unless Humanity gets to really educate themselves through knowing how it is that this reality exists, how the entire system was created - not only as 'money' or 'economy' but how we were created as human beings, how the system evolved within its ways of Energetic-Enslavement which is basically what Money Represents as the medium through which we've separated ourselves from this entire physical human reality - will we then get to speak in equal terms of what an actual Solution to this world is which then would be Energetic-Equality as Equal Money for All as Life Support for Every-one in this earth - no need to build any super-dope city - we first have to make sure those that have non get to live in dignity - that's priority.

Peter Joseph is not seeing the fact that such human nature he seems to know very well is the very same point that will drive any system to its collapse because humans are pillars of any system - thus if you don't make sure that the Human is actually re-educated to be able to co-exist with fellow human beings without harming each other, without wanting to have 'all the power', without wanting to steal the neighbor's wife, without wanting to cheat to get more of the 'resources' - I mean, all of that = Will Still Fuck the System - and thus, the nice techno-dream will collapse! Because there is Not Enough Human Education as the understanding of who we are within this world and how it is that we do NOT require 'Reconnecting with the Environment' BUT Realizing WE ARE the Environment - We are one and Equal to everything that is HERE and within missing that single point, we are still separating ourselves from ourselves - and that implies not only the current USE of money, but how we are only existing as mind-systems with no actual stance as The Physical, HERE as LIFE itself.

We cannot expect the environment to change the human, that's been proven in the opposite side wherein extreme human conditions such as wars or even natural disasters haven't changed the Nature of Man - that was Also an Environmental Condition - and it didn't change the human.

Now, imagine creating this super-paradise cities where the grass is green and the girls are pretty, lol! Humans will take the whole thing even Further for granted!! that's just plain obvious, and they won't actually then do anything but caring about their own self sustained super city - once again - living in their super jetsons-like alternate reality while the rest of the world= BILLIONS Starve.

Go Zeitgeist-Venus go!

I mean, it's perfect plan to then polarize even more everyone, because it's obvious that people having no house, water or electricity in an African country aren't watching Zeitgeist nor will they be the first ones considered to be the 'priviledged ones' to live in one of these super cities - which are really like the perfect look for Star Wars-like movies coming to Earth and simply thus once again triggering people's desires for a 'future' like that because that's part of the fucking preprogramming. Lol! the eternal desire for Evolution! while only changing the Holographics! Fascinating, it's been said already and no one is yet SEEING the obvious.

Now in the movie they say that after some people are living in those cities they will invite people from around the world to go and live and learn the ways there to then create more of these cities around the world. I mean seriously, where the hell is that all going to come from? They haven't shared any practical ways to actually do it - and even before that! Once again, they haven't considered at all the nature of the human being as it is currently existing - even more now with the entire self-revelation as the demonic nature comes out in everyone - and that is simply a fact, just look at what's going on in this world - not only in major news, but go out and see what's happening on individual levels - none of that is actually considered by Mr. Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco once again.

The Environment - if created for the best for all - can only influence the human being to such an extent - the Human Being Has and Must Deliberately Will themselves to Change and this doesn't only require 'Will' in itself but it requires understanding and actual knowing of Self before changing to know how we exist as Mind Consciousness Systems preprogrammed to fail at living in any type of Equality-System.

Now! that's HOW and WHY it is paramount to get to know ourselves within the context of this reality - how we came to be, why we are here, how it is that we've created our own demise through the use of money, how it is that we've been inherently selfish all the way which has prevented even the brightest idea to function properly for the best of All Humanity.

We have never actually Lived, we cannot even consider that living in a city like that could make a difference at a global scale - we have to be able to create an entire economical, social system that is considering EVERYONE as Equals from the get-go, empowering everyone equally and that won't only take the building of cities, but will take actual work as to re-educate man - which in itself is the most important point and if you see, it's already the point that could in itself take several years to actually implement for All Equally.

Thus, the solutions placed are still limited and pretty much guided by that rationality of man that wants 'self-improvement' through other means, through changing the pictures and environment and doing something revolutionary as to how things are done - without even going in depth to how the Education System would have to be torn apart to stop the indoctrination of people and instead sharing about Self-Realization as only that can actually then place a broad understanding of how it is that WE are creating this world, how it is that Money came to be and thus how Economics were created as the single super-creation of man to make everything seem 'out of reach' for any 'mortal' to dare to change. Lol, that time is over, we are here now and we understand how all of it has been planned to function as, the purpose, the means, and why it is that we are still accepting it and seeing as 'this is how things are and there's no way out'.

We are here no to have a 'way out' of the system as that would be self-separation - we are here to Equalize ourselves as the system, we are not here to opt out through an alternate-reality creation, we are here to support ourselves to first change ourselves within our individual reality as the physical, as our every day living that we are continuing as mere robots seeing no solution to one's own experience -- that's the single point that isn't being considered/realized within the entire Zeitgeist movie as an actual-practical application that must take place before even dreaming of building 'new cities' -

WE can't possibly even allow ourselves to even consider such fantasies as 'real' when we have people starving to death, dying of malnutrition, of decadent living conditions as Not having any water, not having any proper hygiene, not having any ability or even possibility of re-education - that is just an insult to every human being that's not being considered in this world, that is simply disregarding the fellow man as an Equal.

Thus, it is clear that Zeitgeist Movement and Venus Project as the fantastic-coalition that they've built and created - even if having the best intentions for all as they sure claim - is lacking consideration for the very basic points that could create a difference from dream-land techno.reality working or not.

This world requires an actual brain-washing from all that we've allowed ourselves to indulge into - that's actual brain-washing so that we can see, finally See and Understand the extent of the changes that must happen in this world at an individual level - only now at an individual level - to only much later consider improving this reality to such extent as it's shown int he Zeitgeist Movie.

I'm not saying that such technology isn't possible or that it isn't something plausible - I'm just re-instating that it is Not the actual solution for this world, at all! Not now, not within the conditions that we are here and thus I cannot allow myself to even indulge in the thought of 'oh wow living like that' when seeing kids starving to death, surrounded by flies, eating mud cakes to fill their stomach while wondering why the hell on earth is it that human beings are being further deluded into dream-like alternate realities and Not having any Common Sense Left to realize the basic Equality Equation required to take place as an actual self-improvement within this world.

We are making sure we begin with ourselves, we are making sure that we are supporting ourselves first, to be self honest, to not delude ourselves with any marvelous ideas of this reality as that is Equal to 'Hope' and even equal to the delusion of a god existing only for 'some thousands' on Earth.

People, get real! Time to Open Your Eyes fully and completely to see and realize that there is much more that what you'll ever get to see in a popular well-crafted movie with the attempt of creating a solution while missing essential/vital points to make an actual real change.

Stand Up for Real - Take Self Responsibility, yes, that beings with You-yourself as an Individual.

Investigate Equal Money, Investigate Desteniand the Desteni I Process

Equality for All Life beings within actually changing ourselves.
Marlen
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:12 pm

Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:54 pm

I'll be posting feedback received for this post in its original location at http://marlenlife.livejournal.com - most users didn't leave their name so I'll post them as 'anonymous'

Okay so here’s the first reply:

(Anonymous) (174.52.168.15) wrote:
Feb. 1st, 2011 04:32 pm (local)


Subject: Zeitgeist Movement

“Every problem you have stated in the opinion above is addressed by the
ZM, not as fixed or dogmatic but as an ongoing conversation about those
subjects. The ZM has as its primary goal the education of the population
of the world into a sustainable future, by the realization that existing
systems do not work and in fact cause most of the unsustainable factors,
and science has already discovered means to create a sustainable future.
It's all about how people think.
We choose to go with science, because it seems to give the most reliable
working data. After all, Science is the study of Nature, and that is the
direction of human survival.”


Peter Josephs’ approach to the application of the scientific method as ourselves – meaning outside of the regular contrived ways of ‘science’ itself, is cool as a way to get to know ourselves- though the starting point has to be re-evaluated - we suggest Self Honesty as we realize that as you say “It’s all about how people think” and thoughts driven into actions is what has created this entire reality as it is. Human Survival is systematic, meaning there’s more to it than simple human observation – an actual understanding would imply getting to know how this reality has been created, how we’ve been existing as Mind Consciousness Systems within this reality and how we’ve created the current Money System as that Energetic-Enslavement which has defined the entire ‘relationship’ that we have and create with anything/anyone in this world – thus it’s a bit more than just observing, but getting to know the core of how and why we have as human race never actually evolved but just shifted through pictures - without ever actually in essence changing the infamous ‘human nature’ which is the core point we’re looking at and directing-towards in this post.

Such ‘reliable working data’ as science is subject to the observer as the mind that hasn’t actually been able to see itself outside of the mind – thus the relevance of getting to know the facts of this reality to understand how the entire system was deliberately set up to fail to live in a balanced-harmonious way. This is why Re-Education as a deliberate repetition of self-willed actions is an active way of changing such human nature to start developing common sense – as always thinking, speaking, writing and communicating what’s best for all and live by such ways through a Process of Self Honesty - and thus to actually implement it in each one’s lives as actual-actions, deeds, words that are lived that can definitely create a better understanding of this reality as our own creation – hence realizing the focus for now, must be the individual itself –before thinking ‘out of the box’ from that perspective. First things first – focusing on self is the primary point as starting point to be the actual change.
“We consider almost everything else to be irrelevant. There are people of
all religions in the ZM. “


Religions imply separation of people – religions have lead to wars – wars are obviously Not best for all as they end up in conflicts of harm and abuse towards fellow man when standing within a self-created identification as part of a group/culture/race above all human basic equality-points. Thus, we don’t support them, we don’t allow them as they are in itself a tampering point to realize Equality and Self Responsibility fully – as the moment you believe in something, you must know you are delegating a part of yourself onto something/someone else –be it greater or not – the single allowance of anything separate from ourselves is indeed separation.


“The first movie Peter made, Zeitgeist: The Movie, was his personal art
project before he met Jacque Fresco and the Zeitgeist Movement started.
The movies after that gives data as to why we have come to the
conclusions we have. But the movies are only a tiny part of the Movement,
with the ongoing conversation being far more important.”



Sticking to simplicity it’s what works best in terms of ‘coming to terms’ with anything – this reality requires simple solutions, simple actions that can be taken by any individual human being that’s simply willing to start caring to bring about a solution to this world. Thus this ‘task’ isn’t taken out of self, but it is instead Embraced AS Self First as we understand how opinions are the building blocks of illusion and opinions create differences that stand in the way of common sense = what’s best for all Life in Equality – that’s the principle all living beings should consider before engaging in any con.versation about changing the world.


“We are not about cities... that is just showing what is technologically
possible for everyone on the planet, if they choose to live in cities...
if they don't, that's fine too, and what we are about is making it
possible for everyone on the planet to have vastly better than their
survival necessities, and do it without even wage slavery, AND do it
without ecological destruction. No livingry is discounted or ignored.
Weaponry, on the other hand is absolutely rejected.”




Technology is a great tool indeed, though it is just that – a tool, a medium to propagate this ideas for now and unite people through the internet. We stick with what’s here – of course much can be ‘projected’ on to the future if one is able to do it, but as I stated in my original post-entry, how is that relevant to this current state of the world, take a look at third world countries – they first require food to have sufficient energy to be able to attend school and not be malnourished and incapable of engaging in any learning activities. Thus the importance of first Equalizing Energy for All as that basic ‘fuel’ to live- which is then Equal Money and the solution we are presenting.

We are both standing for environmental care as ourselves, as an all inclusive system – caring for animals, plants, nature as ourselves and taking on the stand as Life-custodians on earth as how it should’ve always been –

Once again, Money is not the problem –we simply have to change the rules that are guiding the ways money exists and the ways it’s being used.

So, that’s a point to re-consider –again, simply to point it out as what we stand for not in means of creating any opposition at all – just pointing out what’s being missed.
“We are all about the basic causes that are starving a billion people on
this planet. We are all about changing the human behavior that is causing
the ecology, which is our common outer body, to disintegrate. And we are
all about people choosing to self-educate to understand how humanity can
live on this planet with a freedom and prosperity which exceeds all past
imagination.”



Such ‘freedom’ cannot exist as long as the actual mind-patterns that have been transmitted through and as DNA as how the entire human race exists now is what first must be taken on which is the result of the entire acceptance and allowance of ‘who we are’ as the mind. We can’t really be free until All are Free and even there, that freedom is still subject to our basic requirements to actually even consider in making such ‘freedom’ as a possibility in this world. It’s mostly a nice concept that uplifts the human into an ‘Ideal’ – not an actuality which is what very few people are really willing to see and understand = that’s self honesty and thus it is only through knowing our bounds and limitations, through living them, through working with them to transcend them that we can only then get to an actual living solution as ourselves – as individuals changing themselves. So far this has been a very tough point to take on as human nature is systematic in its functioning thus one has to really will oneself to change – caring doesn’t come naturally – and we make sure that we do really stand as what’s best for all without seeking any forms of ‘stepping outside of the box’ without first having taken Self-Responsibility for the entire creation as it is ourselves.

Thus, solutions won’t come that easy – long tough road as hard work is required to do this. By everyone, by each one.


“We are not about Utopia, which cannot exist, or forcing people in any
way, or causing or supporting revolution... we are not about arguing,
either, because we really don't have to do that. The planetary situation
does our arguing for us. The survival impulse is a paradigm shift that is
global and includes everyone. We are a result of that, and all we have is
a set of ideas and information that is one option for human survival. It
is certainly not the only option although we can see that violence and
revolution will never produce the change we want to see.”




That clarifies the point that I saw through the movie as inciting for a ‘revolution’ as they state which involves dropping money in front of banks and revolting that way.

Yes, what’s best for all is non debatable – we simply all have to agree on basic terms that must be considered to create any actual change in this world and they are based upon all of the above.

Now, here’s the nitty gritty – ideas/knowledge without being placed into action result in simple idealism and inaction and thus just another pipe-dream= useless. And because we realize how this things take time, planning, resources as money, as people getting to understand how important this point is to get to create an actual standing –constant and consistent change, we are taking the first steps and working with ourselves as individuals within the process of learning and understanding how it is that all our actions affect the entire world – understanding how we’ve accepted and allowed this world as it is and thus taking self responsibility for our individual worlds to then be stable and HERE enough to start taking on our environment as ourselves – once again we cannot go trying to ‘fix the world’ without focusing on ourselves first – one must take care of the root of it all before wanting any fruition.

Thus, we have an actual walking step by step process going from the individual into the group, learning how we have to stop such type of mental individualism as ego that separates ourselves, that pushes everyone to think for themselves and their own ‘survival’ instead of being directing ourselves by what’s best for all – within this we direct, live, act, speak, write and share with the world as who we are as human beings observing themselves in self honesty, to expose the delusions that we create as the mind = creating the world as an exact replica of the mind. If we understand this point then it’s obvious we have to start taking on ourselves as our mind first to only then start considering on going any step further.
“And we are not monolithic, or following a dogma or the leadership of
anyone. Jacque Fresco is a 94 year old visionary who we respect and
listen to, but there is no 'power' in that since we will not force or
intimidate anyone. Peter is a talented filmmaker with a gift of
explaining complex subjects and a loving heart, and he 'owns' the main
zeitgeist site, but he is simply another respected voice in the movement,
he is not 'leader' to anyone in the movement who fully understand what we
are about.”




Equality within a group must be represented by an Equal participation of all participants –each one becoming an equal-leader – that’s what we are walking as and definitely learning a lot from each other, to recognizing ourselves in fellow human beings that probably in other times we would’ve feared and judged – so we’re stopping that and simply taking things within common sense so that we can stop our individual-races to become one single race, the human race that finally meets its goal: Equality as Life.

“Going from a few people to 500,000 people all over the planet in about
two years means we are growing fast, and members are at all levels of
understanding. This means that we have a wide diversity of opinions and
ideas which people develop and run with, within our basic understanding
of 'Do No Harm'. We are trying to bring about a change of mind, and
therefore action, for a world with 6+ billion people and we want to have
that change be as peaceful as the maturing of any human being going from
childhood into adulthood, and since only a good means can create a good
result, it must be peaceful, through voluntary self-education.”




Wanting stays in just that: a ‘want’, a ‘desire’ that doesn’t have any practical living-action plan to take on that want into a reality as a living-process of each one participating and joining the movement. I’d encourage those 500,000 people to start exposing themselves in Self Honesty as to how they exist within the deepest-chambers of their mind and thus having actual real introspection and insight upon how it is that we as individuals are creating this reality as ourselves – thus once again, everything is still remaining at an idealism level with no practical living application – which is what we are here certainly busy with, you can do proper research just in this livejournal blog which I began when getting to Desteni and see how one is actually able to start getting out of one’s own mind bubble into self-direction to care about this reality as a whole. Lots of Self Forgiveness required to make that ‘change’ a reality and most importantly, sticking to that Living Decision of doing what’s Best for All in all ways, always acting in accordance to Life and not ego.



We are actually realistic and we know that 6 billion people – almost 7 now – won’t be walking this process in Self Honesty because it takes an actual understanding to then get ourselves through this process in the most important life-commitment we can ever take within our existence – and this we are walking diligently, each day as ourselves, sharing with the world for all to see – and this, everyone that is able to self-reflect upon one’s world, that is able to communicate and write is suited with the basics to start this process of Self Honesty = actual Living Practical Application of the Principle of Equality as All to then re-educate ourselves not only as having more knowledge and information, but placing it into action as that which is relevant for all equally, practically.



“While many think that is impossible, science seems to show that it is,
and we can do it. We know it is a long term project, which might take
more than one generation, but it must be done right or the result will
not be good.”



Yes, taking the point here is vital – and yes it will take time though once again look at how ‘science’ is taking a major role in that – just plain observation from how it’s been written in your response here.

Best is to simply rely on the basics first as explained above within the ‘basic points’ of understanding ourselves as individuals, as our mind.

“We cannot live with the knowledge that our civilization is starving
billions, slaughtering thousands, and obliterating our ecology when we,
along with all the other people in the world conscious of that, have some
idea of what to do about it.”




We are Certain about what must be done, though it’s not the most ‘flashy’ solution out there as it’s not sugar for the ears of anyone – it is actually quite the opposite as for now the true-nature of the human must be revealed, exposed and thus dissected for everyone to see, to identify ourselves and to get to an actual understanding of our role as creators in this reality. ‘Civilization’ is simply the externalization of our mind in means of creating a septic environment to pretend to be ‘civilized’ monkeys which we know is not actually so and it stays within a single picture being presented as the mask of being ‘more evolved’ and ‘more techno-savvy’ but! The essence of the human being remains the same which is the very first point that needs to be taken on –once again, that in itself will take quite a lengthy amount of time as we have to make sure that this is then created as an educational-foundation for all human beings as without that, any other way of implementing a solution is doomed to fall as the basic foundation of it must be laid upon an overall understanding of us within this world as the units/cells of the entire body that must learn how to co-exist without harming, killing, abusing each other or of the resources as energy that’s being pumped for everyone – though yet not equally distributed – which is causing the cancer in this world. That is what must stop: ourselves from being such cancer in this whole that is ourselves.

Thanks for the reply and expanding upon the points exposed in the entry – it clarifies some – though seems there is still no definitive ways established on how to take that care and consideration into practical-living within a structured way that will lead to a solution that will be consider everyone as to have the same starting point to actually be able to Live and be Supported Equally by the single fact of being a living being in this world.
“You are always welcome to check into us more at
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com We also have a Teamspeak server so we
can have voice conversations about the ZM and it's goals and methods.”



Cool, I also suggest you check out the websitehttp://www.equalmoney.org

There’s ONE single goal that must be certain for ALL those that are wanting to create a change in this world: Equality – and that’s not debatable and the ways to get it must have a single easy simple starting point: Self.

Visit http://www.desteni.co.za, visit the forums where we share ourselves as the process and insights we live by when starting to take us individually to create a change within ourselves as part of taking Self Responsibility to then, become life-changing agents, life-coaching people that are able to support themselves and others as Equals. That’s real living practical day to day care.

Check it out – Thanks.
Marlen
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:12 pm

Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:56 pm

matejvarga wrote today at 9:33 AM
The ideals are worthless and Zeitgeist movement is just a compromise between current system and Equal Money System, it cannot work because MInd is abusive in its nature thats what they do not realize. And Science is not a holy grail, it is just a tool how we can actually make things better, e.g. cold fusion instead of the oil and so on but its not the holy grail.
Marlen
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:12 pm

Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:46 pm

(Anonymous) (65.120.35.162) wrote:
Feb. 1st, 2011 02:53 pm (local)

“More research needed
**I'm not leaving this comment to attack you in any way. I just don't want others to read this and think it is accurate”


The blog post is a perspective, an immediate correlation to the reality I see and live in – thus I am not stating it is ‘how it is’ – it’s just how things are when taking the proposal out of its cocoon.

“You don't understand the movement. It is not a utopia like you and many many others have stated. It will not be some people living in the cities and others in mud. We understand that this will only work if these ideas are applied holistically.”


So you are saying that these type of cities would have to be built around the entire world? How on Earth is that even conceivable? That would be the correct application of ‘applied holistically’ so, I am still not getting a straight answer here.

“Many of the criticisms you have are addressed on TVP/TZM websites, and ironically, agree with you in some cases. I suggest you research the Venus Project more thoroughly. Watching the movies is only the very tip of the iceberg. Find some of Jacque's lecture videos online. Operate scientifically, use critical thinking.

Have a great life! “


Jacque and Peter are still missing vital points: grounding themselves to this reality and grounding their ideas to an actual applicable and achievable way to create a betterment of this world and society – so far, no concrete plan son the table, all still ideas floating in the air.

We are here to simply point out what’s missing as you guys following a movement have to also realize what is it that you are actually following/supporting without taking into consideration the most important points as to how is that ever going to be placed into real-actual-physical application.

Getting rid of money is simply the first huge mistake being proposed –

Research the Equal Money System - ground yourself into Equality and until then, we will not stop.
If Equality is considered within this movement, then both solutions will meet in the way. That's a certainty - if not, then we may know it was never actually real.

Thanks.
Marlen
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:12 pm

Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:49 pm

(Anonymous) (68.149.230.7) wrote:
Feb. 1st, 2011 05:30 pm (local)

Subject: your critique of the zeitgeist movement

“Hello,

I've been following the information presented by the zeitgeist movement
for about a year, and I happened upon your journal through my google
alerts about it.

I just wanted to mention to you that your points about building super
cities while billions of people starve is bang on, but what you're
missing about the intent of the movement altogether is that we know that
nothing like that has ever been tried before.. so to build one is just
the first stage.”

See the common sense point here: how are you even going to build an entire CITY in this world – and with no money? How is that not contradicting itself from the proposals of the movement?
The fact that it hasn’t been ‘tried before’ doesn’t mean that it’s the best proposal/solution at all. Thus such first stage would take a huge period of time to only THEN see ‘if it works’ while the world crumbles apart. Nice one.


“If it all takes off and it all happens, it's with the
full intent of spreading ready and easy access to housing and food for
everyone in the human civilization, so long as it's their desire to
participate”


The first line is anything but concrete and actually flying high into the air –nothing will ‘happen’ and nothing will ‘take off’ with no practical actual steps and achievable/doable proper planning.

Before even getting to the point of trying to provide housing/food for everyone on the planet, you will have to explain to me how is that going to work within the context of economy, how is that going to be ‘given’, how is that even going to be managed? Who’s going to be managing that? Which is most important to then know who will be ‘the head’ of this entire scheme.


“With the application of things like vertical hydroponic
farming and the like, food could be produced in such abundance that those
who are going without now, could be helped from afar, at the same time as
developing similar technologies local to the people who are suffering so
they can have the means right in their own backyard.”


That sounds ‘nice’ in theory though, who’s gonna provide all the money to create such technology?
who’s gonna decide who takes what first and who’ll have to ‘wait in line’ before such stuff gets to them?
Who will be working to actually construct/manufacture and deliver this type of technology?
And once again: with no money?

and no actual consideration of the entire food industry to create those changes? As long as these solutions aren't backed up by an actual plan that considers how these seemingly 'small changes' affect the whole in a structural way, they are still not realistic and can be considered as simple pipe-dreams.


“It's a global
movement, which is why there is no push to fundraise and build the
happytime future city for the zeitgeist-minded people to go off to and
live happily ever after while everyone else goes without.”


I see contradiction – it is a global movement yet not really wanting to create solid funds – this then shows the lack of understanding of how this world works and moves which is all by/through/as MONEY.

So, then if you say that there is no push for the building of such cities, then what are the first concrete steps then?


“Besides, if
there's one place that DOES figure out how to take care of themselves,
and the shit hits the fan in the next town over, the people from that
town will come to try to take their share anyways. That's why it'd never
work to do all of that in isolation.”


I highlight ‘and the shit hits the fan’ which is revealing part of the motivation for millions following the Zeitgeist Movement – rather wanting to have a boat to escape when things go wrong which would only be our own manifested consequences as the entire disregard of ourselves as Life as equals and thus abusing/harming ourselves and every living being in this planet. Thus the solution would have to be an immediate application for EVERYONE equally – not only ‘Zeitgeist sympathizers’ which is something I still don’t get any proper information on the actual concrete plan to follow for that.


‘Come and try to take their share anyways’ – see the underlying anarchism and total mayhem ‘getting rid of money’ can create? Lol, human beings cannot be trusted at all – I would certainly NOT want to depend on a human being to ‘get my share’- this is HOW and WHY Money is required – it’s plain stupidity believing that the ‘good will of men’ will care for one another as equals – Not yet, not now, not even less without money as a means of making sure that everyone gets the equal amount as basic foundation to live.

So, if it’s not an 'isolated movement', then what are the actual-practical steps applicable to all human beings–regardless of them being ‘literate’ on the movement?

Consider those that have no proper education to even grasp the ideas you are presenting, consider those that cannot afford having ‘internet’ to read your website.

What’s the thing even the poorest most isolated beings know about? Money.

Simple.

“And also, an aside, everything in Jacque Fresco's drawings and concepts
is very possible to do today.. we just, as a society, choose not to,
because there's more money in decay than a lasting infrastructure. What
happens to all the plumbers jobs when the pipes are built to last? Much
better to keep the economy going with halfassed stuff”


The fact that these are all ‘aside’ points shows that there is no actual core of it as a base foundation to develop this.

IT’s not about ‘inventions’ and ‘lasting infrastructure’ – that is obviously being created as non-lasting due to the necessity to keep industries running, to keep creating profit and assuring the market of people depending on such goods/products/services as well as infrastructure – In my country for example, the worst type of materials are used to build highways because the government decides to take the most for their own pocket and ensuring that such highway will only last for their term in office – and so the cycle repeats ad nauseam. All because of Money and profit. Thus yes when building things to last human activity will change – but we first focus on what’s HERE.

“Speaking of Haiti, I, and many, many others like me, I'm sure would be
thrilled to go down there and help with the cleanup and restoration
efforts, but can't, because we're busy with tedious jobs so we can make
the money to cover rent at home.”


There is much more events like this that will take place on Earth, even if we wanted to help and restore and ‘save’ it is impossible – it is manifested consequences that are part of human beings realizing the extent of harm and abuse done unto life – though that seems to be out of common sense realizations for people within this world – as if it was a simple casualty.

Charity, people ‘helping’ is not a definitive solution either – that entire country would have to be rebuilt to be stable again – that requires MONEY for now which is not there thus, as long as we don’t solve the MONEY problem, not much can be done. It would be definitely useless to go there while you create further debt in your life.



“I just can't see how giving everyone the same amount of meaningless
pieces of paper, or 1's and 0's in a digital bank account is going to fix
anything. Especially in areas where there IS no work, there are no jobs,
and they'd spend all their 'equal money', some food company would take it
all, give them a month's worth, and then we'd be back where we started.”



We are giving Money a Real-Physical Meaning – just as resource-based economy but with a VALUE in it – a numerical, counting tool that is worth Life-Support and that can be given to everyone Equally. For that there must be obvious significant changes as to how Money is conceived now and thus also understanding the entire system and its intricate relationship with money as value upon everything that is here.

Equal Money wouldn’t imply a silly idea such as ‘placing all your money in front of the banks’ and jumping happily – no.

Equal Money System implies a complete change in how we as humans and all living beings exist in this world within the single First step of changing the value of Money as Life: Money = Life given to everyone as a first step to empower everyone Equally – this is an All-Inclusive system practically applied by money.

Thus if everyone receives Life Support = Money, we all have an Equal starting point to then start taking care of the places that require to be Equalized to have a Dignified Living – thus we are implying that places with the most necessity are Priority to support.


Companies would be part of the system, schools, entertainment everything would be part of the same Equal Life system otherwise any type of clever/greedy human being can take advantage – this is how control is required, this is How and Why Money is required for proper management of resources and services for all people. Now, this single point obviously will take time and first of all understanding which is then requiring Re-Education.

People will have to re-educate themselves to even use money, to work with themselves to stop greed, to stop only caring about themselves and start realizing that we have to care about each one as Equals – which is the one single basic point we are practically working with at this moment as an individual Process of Self Honesty and Self Forgiveness to practically physically change how we live within as individuals in our reality so that we can then start externalizing this change into our society – this has to be taken through actual Education which is already Here and being walked by many in this World as part of Desteni as the Equal Money System

So suggest you take a look at it, it’s all about Practical Application – otherwise it’s easy to fly high in the sky.
Marlen
 
Posts: 368
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:51 pm

(Anonymous) (90.230.175.219) wrote:
Feb. 1st, 2011 05:54 pm (local)

Subject: You are 99% correct!

“I must say i love you! i read the whole thing with this huge smile on my
face. You are correct. And what's so funny about it is that what you say
is exactly what The Zeitgeist Movement tries to point out to the public
and its member. The basic, single most important and first step is to
change the values of people today, to re-educate. That’s exactly what
Zeitgeist is talking about.

This is what is said in Zeitgeist: Addendum (the second film): "We must
mobilize and educate everyone about the inherent corruption of our
current world system. Along with the only true sustainable solution:
Declaring all the natural resources on the planet as the common heritage
to all people.[...]

The choice lies with you. You can continue to be a slave under the
current system, and see endless wars, depressions and injustice across
the globe while play-kidding yourself with vain entertainment and
materialistic garbage. Or, you can focus your energy on true, lasting,
holistic change. Which actually has the realistic ability to support and
free humans, with no-one left behind. But, in the end, the most relevant
change must first occur inside of you. The real revolution is the
revolution of consciousness and each one of us first needs to eliminate
the diversionary, materialistic noise we have been conditioned to think
is true. While discovering, amplifying and aligning with the signal,
coming from our true, empirical oneness. It is up to you." - Peter Joseph
1:55:47 to 1:57:13 Zeitgeist: Addendum”


Okay, sounds cool and wonderful –nice motive-action but: how is it then planned to be placed into actual Action, how is that able to be practically taken by everyone? If you for example have ‘made that decision’, what are You doing and how are you Practically Living that Inner-Change, that Self-Change?

“You are a wonderful human and the world needs more that thinks like you.
It would be amazing if someone like you helped us to create a better
world for everyone. Please look further into Zeitgeist and the Venus
Project to fully understand them, I'm sorry to say it but 2h and 40 min
can't explain a whole new way of thinking and a whole new society.

Please contact me and ask me anything if you have any question or want to
discuss the subject”

//David - member of The Zeitgeist Movement for 2 years, thinking and
fighting for all the starving humans in the world”


I am already ‘there’ Practically moving myself walking the Process of Self Honesty as a way to Re-Educate ourselves to be able to co-exist as Equals in this world, developing Common Sense as applying what’s Best for All in everything we do, say and act upon. Thus if Zeitgeist's solution is really 'What's Best for All' we will meet on the way - if not then we'll know that some steps had to be taken and considered first.

Thus we are already a group of people destined to Support ourselves first to walk this Process while also working in developing the Equal Money System which I suggest you take a look at which will enable you to see the missing points that I’ve pointed out in the original post as a critique to the Zeitgeist Movement.

We do have concrete-applicable plans and we are already walking them – we are an active group around the web – you can research us as Desteni and Equal Money System – we’ll pop up there.

Give yourself the opportunity to read about Equality and how this is the one single Principle that must be the directive point within all attempts of projects/solutions as a lasting and consistent way to implement a better life, a dignified Life for every single person in this world.

Visit the Equal Money System website as well as watching all videos and material available in YouTube.

Thanks for your comment, David.
Marlen
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:12 pm


Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby rangeoshun » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:25 pm

So building with out money, is a nonsans?

How can you say that after you said we do not born with money? If we were not born with it, people long before, born with out it, but still built houses. A lot of houses, with some infrastructure equals cities.

But my "big":) question would be, if you have money, how do you want to give people equally? A cleaning lady will earn as much as a teacher? How do you want to evaluate what job worths what money? What job can and can't be automated? So if you have money, because in my terms I say money as we say it now, and if I understood you, you use it almost the same way, except, you share it "equally". But not equally after all, because you have to work for it, and here goes back the question, what jobs worth what money?
Varga Ábel Gergely aka. range OS 'from' Hungary
rangeoshun
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:09 pm

Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:46 pm

From Youtube video comments:
rangeoshun wrote:@MarlenLife Ok, if you work for 4 years, then you get the starter pack, or you'll get your 'basic' needs met for the time you live? Like old people supposed now days. So, we'll be under pressure, to produce more people, who will work for this 4 years. In our ageing society, it doesn't look good. Will everybody enterprise after their turn? What can they loose? Who will calculate what worth what? If automation will take place, only the regime will be, or the dirty jobs too?


that's just plain assumption man, we don't obviously need to 'produce more people' that's Not the point. 'under pressure', look around you, aren't you 'under pressure' already having money as a life-decisive factor? Who will work? Everyone will! Watch the videos here on Equal Labor System- it is only FAIR that we all put our hands to work for that which sustains us. the LEAST we can do as all resources are already here as the Earth. You want machines to abdicate self responsibility

Money won't obviously exist as it currently does within the set of rules and regulations that are placed and deliberately created to only benefit some who are currently in power.

rangeoshun wrote:So building with out money, is a nonsans?

How can you say that after you said we do not born with money? If we were not born with it, people long before, born with out it, but still built houses. A lot of houses, with some infrastructure equals cities.

But my "big":) question would be, if you have money, how do you want to give people equally? A cleaning lady will earn as much as a teacher? How do you want to evaluate what job worths what money? What job can and can't be automated? So if you have money, because in my terms I say money as we say it now, and if I understood you, you use it almost the same way, except, you share it "equally". But not equally after all, because you have to work for it, and here goes back the question, what jobs worth what money?


We weren't born with money yet it was obvious how and why it was created then - it is virtually cave-man like to pretend to have a world without a form of management and administration of resources on a numerical value basis which is essentially what Equal Money means - if you understand BOTH words, you'll get what 'Equal' 'Money' is about - it's not about a point having 'power' over you, it's only a TOOL that's given to all equally as means of giving a certain amount of support for each individual in this world as a point to create Equality and Dignified Living Conditions.

So, the fact that you want to 'evaluate' which job should be getting more or less money, is indicating that you are certainly not having Equality as your starting point for this reality and that is obviously the point what we are emphasizing, which is currently evidently overlooked by other type of solutions that don't look at the basic and foremost important point to take on as an Overall Solution in this reality: Equality, Life in Equality available to all through Money.

Thus, please watch the videos on Equal Labor System and understand how it is a requirement to equalize the 'value' we've placed on to different jobs/labor as part of this current hierarchical system. That must be stopped completely - otherwise we would simply re-enact the same bullshit we've created currently in this capitalist system
.

Everyone must be involved - this is not about only some getting the 'privilege' of being part of the Equal Money System -

Understanding Equality is required in all ways and for that, I suggest you read further to create the basis of what Common Sense as what's best for all is and how it can be Practically Applied and Lived in this world.
Marlen
 
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:48 pm

By the way, we require to know your real name to participate - we are all accountable for what we say/share here.
Marlen
 
Posts: 368
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby rangeoshun » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:02 am

to have a world without a form of management and administration of resources on a numerical value basis


Than your implying that the fully automated system wouldn't have management, or doesn't administrate resources on a numerical value basis. If it's automated, it can not do anything else than the above, hence it is called a computer.

But how will you make people a good job, because we're talking about jobs here, that aren't necessarily the same as profession, in the sense that you do not have to like it, but you have to do it. You still might easily end up doing something you do not like. So you won't make a good job. So you are fired. Or you just do barely enough to get threw. This IS better indeed, this would be better at least for now. So my point is, you'll still have unsatisfied people, doing crappy jobs, just for the sake of surviving.

The other part, is what can, and what can't we automate. We could virtually automate anything, that we want to, but if you draw a line, than you say, we can't progress any further in this or that. Because the ultimate progression means to get as good as possible. So the best things will almost have your lifespan or more, and it will be produced by machines, unless you say you want to make your own, to get to the highest efficiency. In a resource based economy you have to get that. Or else it's not a resource based economy, but a resource based economy that is bad, and still puts people to places, where they don't want to be.

So unemployment is the side effect of being as efficient as one can, we have to address the problem of unemployment. So once again just to be clear, ether you make up jobs to give to people, or you'll end up to need only a limited number of people. What's up with that?

If i choose to be, or just happen to be out of my jobs, what will happen? I get money, or don't? By the way, the only links i can find whit the keyword of unemployment, on the equalmoney.org site, is when someone righteously slandering the current system, and says it's a side effect of only that.

But it's ironically also correlated, to how efficient our society is. And if you'll end up everyone out of a job, still assuming you do not want to make just up some, to put those poor bastards somewhere, you'll get a few, who could be elected, or rather selected by they're achievements in adding to society. So we finally arrive, to the Venus answer of the question, where people can have equal "money", or rather as they need, in the form of the best possible material things, produced by the best possible worker that time and level of technology.
Varga Ábel Gergely aka. range OS 'from' Hungary
rangeoshun
 
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:19 am

rangeoshun wrote:
to have a world without a form of management and administration of resources on a numerical value basis


Than your implying that the fully automated system wouldn't have management, or doesn't administrate resources on a numerical value basis. If it's automated, it can not do anything else than the above, hence it is called a computer.


I am Not implying anything, that is an assumption. A 'fully automated system' then would be giving to everyone the ability to obtain resources at an equal level - hence and equal money system wherein we use money as a way to give the same to everyone to be able to get the necessary to live in dignity.


But how will you make people a good job, because we're talking about jobs here, that aren't necessarily the same as profession, in the sense that you do not have to like it, but you have to do it. You still might easily end up doing something you do not like. So you won't make a good job. So you are fired. Or you just do barely enough to get threw. This IS better indeed, this would be better at least for now. So my point is, you'll still have unsatisfied people, doing crappy jobs, just for the sake of surviving.


There are a few questions you'd have to ask yourself like 'What have You defined as 'good job' in terms of your-own value system?' Same applies for 'things you don't like doing' which can only entail you have created a judgment upon a certain point of activity according to a point of preference without being able to discern its requirement/necessity as an activity within this world. Expand the point so that we are 'seeing' the same that you are implying through your value-system.

The only reason why you within your context could end up doing a 'job you don't like' is because of survival and having to earn money to simply get by. The only reason you have unsatisfied people is because wages are miserable in relation to the actual physical job that people do, while knowing that it is only supporting further mechanisms of enslavement and polarization through the economic system. Thus, the type of jobs we could assume you're referring to as 'crappy jobs' most certainly exist only because of Profit - within the Equal Money System, it is implied that a profit-driven society will be eradicated as everyone will simply be able to live well without having to resort to manipulation, abuse and control through money to 'get more'. Still, of course, as we've mentioned the individual must understand this at the level of stopping the participation in greed and desires of power and control. That is what we are busy working with at an individual level.

Hence, No More a Survival-Mode Existence. We simply co-exist in an equally supportive system = no need to work to 'get a living'.



The other part, is what can, and what can't we automate. We could virtually automate anything, that we want to, but if you draw a line, than you say, we can't progress any further in this or that. Because the ultimate progression means to get as good as possible. So the best things will almost have your lifespan or more, and it will be produced by machines, unless you say you want to make your own, to get to the highest efficiency. In a resource based economy you have to get that. Or else it's not a resource based economy, but a resource based economy that is bad, and still puts people to places, where they don't want to be.


The point is Not about 'what can you automate' but about seeing how it is that you are focusing only on a mechanical-production solution that is obviously Not the most immediate solution we require for this world. Even if you automated the creation of houses in 'one day' and the production of food - you still require to be able to give this to everyone equally, and this would imply creating machines all over the world so that it is an EQUAL solution. I still can't see the Equality within your proposals.


We're well aware about the planned obsolescence point - now, get to actual solutions that's not only based on creating 'better products'.

The point of 'putting people in places where they don't want to be' is rather ambiguous, I suggest you clarify and disclose what you mean within that statement.

So unemployment is the side effect of being as efficient as one can, we have to address the problem of unemployment. So once again just to be clear, ether you make up jobs to give to people, or you'll end up to need only a limited number of people. What's up with that?


Unemployment exists as a side effect of the entire economic system wherein jobs are required to survive - within the equal money system there will only be the required jobs to maintain/sustain the entire system - no more need to go finding a job simply to be able to pay for food and shelter. See the point? It changes the entire way we've been conditioned to live within the idea of 'I require to get a job to live' That is then the ultimate conditioning we've placed to our ability to LIVE and realize that we shouldn't be striving for a living or forcefully requiring a job to survive.


If i choose to be, or just happen to be out of my jobs, what will happen? I get money, or don't? By the way, the only links i can find whit the keyword of unemployment, on the equalmoney.org site, is when someone righteously slandering the current system, and says it's a side effect of only that.


You Do get money no matter what - unemployment won't exist as such, because of the above explained reasons. Unemployment currently exists as an outflow of people Depending on a job to survive - therefore, if your ability to sustain yourself is given to you through Equal Money - the same as everyone else - to live Well, then you don't require to go looking for jobs. Obviously people will have to support the system with businesses, activities, jobs, professions etc. That will be the actual birth of Self Expression within humanity wherein we will all be able to choose what to be or work in within an Equally Supportive System wherein we will no longer dry ourselves out in a job simply to survive, but to actually get to a point of Self-Expression, as Life.

As we've explained, you will have to collaborate with -tentatively - 4 years of your life to support with your labor one of the main areas of production required to live - either food production, services-maintenance and/or extraction - public services, etc.

But it's ironically also correlated, to how efficient our society is. And if you'll end up everyone out of a job, still assuming you do not want to make just up some, to put those poor bastards somewhere, you'll get a few, who could be elected, or rather selected by they're achievements in adding to society. So we finally arrive, to the Venus answer of the question, where people can have equal "money", or rather as they need, in the form of the best possible material things, produced by the best possible worker that time and level of technology.


The 'ending up without a job' is an assumption by not understanding how it is that we're placing the Equal Money as an overall system that will be enabling everyone to be equally supported - hence your life won't depend on a job. I don't understand what you mean with 'those poor bastards' and that entire sentence - care to clarify?

People will be able to apply to be simply part of a team of management - no more 'elite' classes as politicians per se -

Understand, Equal Money means having the best possible way of existence that doesn't only include being able to have Equal Access to Resources, but will be an overall system that will change human development simply due to eradicating the 'survival factor' that will be solved with Equal Money for All. From there there's obviously hard work ahead as re-education tasks and construction of the necessary infrastructure in places where there is virtually Non at all - and within this I am referring to countries living in extreme-poverty who are priority to Equalize to a Dignified Living Condition.

Thus in Essence, we are basing this system as the basic support platform to create LIVING conditions on Earth that are equally empowering everyone to an Equal level - the redundancy in this is vital to get the point - which means: we're Not only seeing this system in terms of 'production' and its means within the most effective within the current conditions existent in this world and reality, but it is also focusing on the creation of an overall integral human being that considers Life as the ultimate and only value we can consider in this world, wherein we regard each other as Equals and thus realizing that is only through this acknowledgment that we can start changing this current society into an actual-supportive environment for self-trust to be re-created once that fear and survival are eradicated by supporting everyone Equally.

The Equal Money Systems is a synonym of 'What's Best for All Life in all ways' which then considers the ability that we as humans have as the potential to support ourselves to stop living in the current ways we are simply due to how the monetary system works - yet we understand that money is required as a way to create a point of stability, to re-educate ourselves on how to use money as self support once it is placed as an equal-value given to everyone, and thus to get rid of the greed, the desires of power and control that are in essence, the human-desires that have shaped and formed the current rules under which we are "living".

Suggest you ask further questions once you've read more about the Equal Labor System - there are some videos listed in this forum as well.
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby rangeoshun » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:09 pm

So as I understand,basically the only things separating the two ideas, Zeitgeist and Equal Money, is the fact that you are required by the system to work for 4 years, to contribute to society in a job that is still necessary to have human oversee, and the distribution of goods will be threw this equal money. Till this point I can see how it could be implemented in a fully automated system also, as a limit for the individual.

But I don't have to read more to ask this right now, but i assure you I will later, If I choose not to work, will I get the same money, as people who work? If it's equal, it just doesn't matter who, everyone is equal. How do you get people to work at all? If you do not manage to do this, you'll end up needing more people as I mentioned earlier, and it's an assumption based on logic. So you assume at this point people will want to work. That's something that also could be implemented in a fully automated system, just for the individuals how still require some sort of 'everyday hobby'.

In my proposals I don't have equality, in a 'no matter what you'll get the same amount' equality. It's an equality is in 'equal resources to everyone'. Because equality is not represented in peoples needs, as they are different, hence not equal. At this point I assume, no, I believe, that greed is because of the 'fight or die' system. When you can take anything, and virtually as many you can carry, why would you take it? You realize you do not need these right now, you can come back for them later, for example a means for a social interaction, you could do it with friends.
Varga Ábel Gergely aka. range OS 'from' Hungary
rangeoshun
 
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:03 pm

rangeoshun wrote:So as I understand,basically the only things separating the two ideas, Zeitgeist and Equal Money, is the fact that you are required by the system to work for 4 years, to contribute to society in a job that is still necessary to have human oversee, and the distribution of goods will be threw this equal money. Till this point I can see how it could be implemented in a fully automated system also, as a limit for the individual.


That is correct. We will be using hand of technology for the Equal Money System to be in place as it will be mostly an automated system that will enable the distribution of money - the exact way it will be done it's still not known yet, we require a system that is certainly non-corruptible as a fair amount given to all equally. You can see it as a way to 'limit the individual' though it is mostly a point of establishing an orderly way to give to everyone equally. This is how and why Money as a Tool is necessary - call it money, credits, life-units, whatever - the point is giving this ability to access goods and services to everyone Equally hence the term Equal-Money.

But I don't have to read more to ask this right now, but i assure you I will later, If I choose not to work, will I get the same money, as people who work? If it's equal, it just doesn't matter who, everyone is equal. How do you get people to work at all? If you do not manage to do this, you'll end up needing more people as I mentioned earlier, and it's an assumption based on logic. So you assume at this point people will want to work. That's something that also could be implemented in a fully automated system, just for the individuals how still require some sort of 'everyday hobby'.


If you choose Not to work, it's fine. But the 4 years of labor is a conscription plan - just as you now have your military-service to become a citizen and so forth - that will be a point of requirement to keep yourself being supported by the system- otherwise the system can still choose not to support you in Equality as you are NOT supporting the System to sustain itself. Basic Common Sense guidelines of giving and receiving.

People will work out of necessity to expand themselves as actual Self Expression. We've been so brainwashed and limited within this system that we've equated Labor to a 'Must Do' and an 'obligation'/ 'mandatory' point when it comes to 'having to survive' or 'make a living' in this world. Hence, the importance or realizing how much Life on Earth will change the moment no one's pushed to 'survive' in this world but is being equally supported. What we foresee - and this is what I've explained in videos- is human nature finally adapting to an actual self-expression point wherein we will - by that sense of collective-collaboration as belonging to an Equally-Supportive System - place ourselves in a position that is Equally Supportive, because we will be understanding how it is actually possible to work and support a Self-Supportive System and not being simply a battery for this entire system of enslavement as we currently are 'living' in.

There's a specific explanation on your question: Equal Money and Self-Motivation

Contributionism - Why we need a new system based in Equality

Now, with regards to 'needing more people' - unbalances are prone and even expected to happen as it is most likely that people will go haywire getting 'Equal Money' and thus dropping their jobs and whatnot - yet everyone will eventually realize that they have to become points of support if Equality is Understood - once again, basic education to understand Equality. We have to learn how to actually MOVE Ourselves without being 'pushed' to move by the sake of profit-making to be able to 'make a living' in this world. This implies that we must realize how we are the ones that must deliberately create a change from existing in a parasitic relationship into and as a symbiotic one where we finally are able to live as an actual collective, co-operating to sustain a Life-Supportive System - just as nature does.

See the importance of mostly Educating the human being to Learn that we are Not here only to 'scratch our tummy' and 'have a good life' - that's all been part of the scam to promote the incentive of people getting to have 'power' as money to then be able to 'just chill' in this world and do nothing- there is an obvious and blatantly promoted abdication of Self Responsibility through this ideals. We as any living beings Must live by the ways of how an Equality-System works. So that is and will be mostly our task to first establish this as a point of Principle that has to be created within the current human being as it's never actually existed in fact - that sense of being part of the collective just as a cell is to a human body - this is a work that is already taking place through a Self Honesty process to realize who we are as Equals in this world and place it into practical application.



In my proposals I don't have equality, in a 'no matter what you'll get the same amount' equality. It's an equality is in 'equal resources to everyone'. Because equality is not represented in peoples needs, as they are different, hence not equal. At this point I assume, no, I believe, that greed is because of the 'fight or die' system. When you can take anything, and virtually as many you can carry, why would you take it? You realize you do not need these right now, you can come back for them later, for example a means for a social interaction, you could do it with friends.


I've gotten this same comment on 'people's needs' in the Paradise Cities video today - and it's one load of bullshit really. How can you say people have 'different needs'? Don't you eat? Don't you require a roof over your head? Don't you require water? Don't you require proper public services? Don't you require health-care? Don't you require MONEY to Survive in this world? And the list could go on forever. Hence that statement of yours is coming from a consideration of 'specialness' that each human being has deluded themselves into = which is what has created and promoted the inequality in this world.

'BeLIEving' implies faith, hence it is not really YOU that's making sure it gets done, but still abdicating Self Responsibility for a quick answer within it all.

Greed is in fact the survival-mechanism in place at an exponential rate wherein those that already have the basics to live and 'survive' then are fed with more stimuli to 'get more' and thus 'buy more', hence doing anything possible to earn more and more money. That is how the system is kept in place - through creating more needs and desires and wants to get to that ultimate point of 'happiness' and 'fulfillment' which is rather fool-filling yourself with an idea of power -which remains as an IDEA nonetheless - who we are as physical bodies as human beings that require the same things to live in this world cannot change in essence with regards to who we are the physical body with 'more' or 'less' money - the only outflow could be starving to death due to not having money and other obvious points that would be missed for basic sustenance with no money.

That 'instinct' which is a preprogrammed mechanism linked to survival of 'taking all you can' is based on the same system that has created scarcity as a way of controlling people, hence creating the urge for them to 'move' otherwise 'the products' will be 'gone'!. This is part of the re-education necessary within this world for all human beings to understand there will be no need to 'run and get it all' as it will be equally available for all. Social interaction as relationships just as anything else in our reality is currently permeated by the same survival-of-the-fittest mechanism wherein we try to 'enhance ourselves' through an illusion of creating an entire personality that will be 'accepted' by all and will be considered 'superior' and everything that could ensure that being as able to establish a point of relationship with a partner, social recognition which leads to 'earning good money' and hence we can see it's all part of the same ball game of Survival and its counter-act 'Desire for Power and Specialness'.

Thus the Equality System entails changing the ways we've existed for such a long time already, thus it certainly means a lot of work must be done and must begin within ourselves as we've explained several times already.

For now looking into any further 'solution' is rather naive as these basic Human-Nature 'treats' must be dealt with and sorted out before any Equality-System is in place. We are emphasizing the requirement of this Education as a stepping stone to simply Get to Understand and Live what Equality is.

If you've got any further questions with regards to the points we've opened up, place them here - we'll get back at it asap.

Thanks.
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby rangeoshun » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:21 pm

I've gotten this same comment on 'people's needs' in the Paradise Cities video today - and it's one load of bullshit really.


A load of bullshit that gives neutrition to the soil maybe :)

How can you say people have 'different needs'?


Because they have.

Don't you eat?


I eat as much I feel need to. Do you eat the same amount as everyone else?!

Don't you require a roof over your head?


Do you need the same kind of roof far up north, as the people on the meditarrian?!

Don't you require water?


Again, do you need the same amount?!

Don't you require proper public services?


Yes I do, but whats a public survice, and does everyone need the same services?!

Don't you require health-care?


Yes, but do you need the same amount as a cancer patient?!

Don't you require MONEY to Survive in this world?


No, actually I need the things mentioned above, not money, but if were here: If the above mentioned are not the same amount, do you need the same amount of money?! Basic math....

'BeLIEving' implies faith


Do you belive in atoms? If you say you KNOW there are, then you belive you know, because most likely you didn't see any with your eyes.

'taking all you can' is based on the same system that has created scarcity


No 'taking all you can,' is based on taking all you need.

Complete equality is bullshit. You can't say, people need the same, and saying everyone else who think different in these manners, that they just make things up, and tell bullshit. Complete equality is a fairytale, since we know we simply have different needs, have different capablebilities. We are equal in the sense, nobody deserves less then the other. Not meaning, they couldn't need less ;)
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:46 pm

Okay, you've spoken yourself out to reveal the lack of common sense you present towards the basic questions proposed in means of understanding the basic needs each human being requires.

Still, haven't gotten any practical solution from anyone placing feedback on the matters at hand here - everyone so far opts out and deviates the point of taking actual Self Responsibility to take action within the points that require correction - such as deliberate avoidance of understanding what we are saying with Equality.

Our purpose of placing these type of discussions and inviting people to join in is not to 'opt out' and run away from pushing yourselves to understand what is being proposed within Equality. The fact that no one has up to this point stayed long enough to get to a point of understanding reveals how easy it is to follow but not taking self responsibility for matters that concern all.

Complete equality is bullshit. You can't say, people need the same, and saying everyone else who think different in these manners, that they just make things up, and tell bullshit. Complete equality is a fairytale, since we know we simply have different needs, have different capablebilities. We are equal in the sense, nobody deserves less then the other. Not meaning, they couldn't need less


Denying and neglecting yourself to see Equality is unacceptable in this forum.
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby rangeoshun » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:40 pm

Ohh, lady! Do you really think I do not understand what equality means? Sorry, Equality. Because if you write it with capital will mean something else. :D

Basically, it seems that you are just talking about Equality from a distance. With your 'everyone needs to eat', er go we're Equal thinking you could be saying that raceism sees better these thing, than us who don't. They say, black = black. Yellow = yellow. Some say white = white. :twisted:

Ok, jokes off.

As I understand Equality means, everyone has to have an equal chance for general happiness.
-You say: we have to give limits for people to have things or else ... here your part ends, or I just didn't hear it yet.
-I say: if we let people have anything, anything at all what we can manufacture. Why in the name of Chuck Norris would you want to have useless things, when it's not like we can run out.

And by the way, the basic needs of survival are: eating, sleeping, fucking. Anything above that is a technological achievement, and its just raising the bar of the best, or rather the easiest way of survival till the point when we can stop focusing on that, and just self express as you say. The best way to do that, is to set no limits, and let people decide what they would like.
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:59 pm

No limits = Free Will which opens up doors for further abuse and corruption obviously. Thus the requirement for proper management that won't allow further abuse to be instilled through having 'no limits'

We don't support 'Free Will' and 'Free Choice' for the above mentioned reasons.

Suggest you participate here with the responsibility it is entailed within the nature of the topics we're discussing upon - this means: fucking around will eventually cause you to be banned from here.
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Ann » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:52 am

Something I want to add to make things clear:

Most people will want to work because the basic income, can only be spend on basic needs, BASIC, thus nothing more. Most people do want more. For example candy and such is not a basic need.
Another point:
Equality means being equal in worth, no one is more or less then another. Some people need more food then others, and that has to be taken in consideration, same as adequate housing adapted to the natural environment to be the best quality against nature forces. That is also aprt of equality. Equality does not mean giving and doing the same to all, but doing what is best for all, and all the differences taken into consideration.
So the basic is still "best for all", but what is best for this area may be nto best for another and then we do what is best for another area etc... What is best for another life form , may not be best for another one, and so we look at what is best for all individual cases that differ. Simple.
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Darryl » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:23 am

rangeoshun wrote:Complete equality is bullshit. You can't say, people need the same, and saying everyone else who think different in these manners, that they just make things up, and tell bullshit.

This rather inarticulate "comment" can only come from a perspective that is anti-human and savagely mean-spirited. The reason why we CAN say, people need the same," is because it is the truth. You, like every other human being unfortunate enough to be born on this world had to be supported by another, typically parents, whom I assume kept you fed and sheltered, and I can say this: without their support and nurturing, your would have died pretty quickly, the way 15 million children die for want every year in this world. You're the one talking "bullshit," friend, and maybe you should reflect for a moment before showing yourself to appear to be something of a heartless, self-satisfied jerk. Sorry, don't take that personally. It's just the way you unfortunately come across.

Complete equality is a fairytale, since we know we simply have different needs, have different capablebilities.

Listen: We all have the same basic, biological and economic needs in this world. We need water, food, shelter, education, health care. The entire trail of human history has been one of survival, and survival exists because we are subject to necessity. We need things in order to survive in this world, something that should have been pretty obvious to everybody who is alive. Didn't you know that?

We are equal in the sense, nobody deserves less then the other. Not meaning, they couldn't need less ;)

Correction: we are all equal in the sense that we are all subject to the Law of Necessity. Virtually nobody can survive in this world alone. You need others to ensure your survival. You need money. And you need food and clothing and a place to shit. Did you fail to notice that somebody else provided it for you? Is that why you think you're entitled to have it without considering who had to suffer so you could spew incomprehensible verbal diarrhea on this forum? Well, I suppose we can thank you for exposing yourself on what you think of your fellow man.
I just wanna find a cure for irony and make a fool out of God!
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Ann » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:46 am

I think what he means is for example:
An adult tall person will need more food then a smaller one.

That is true, and that is what we will all take in consideration. To do what is best in a certain circumstance, with the specific environment/life form etc...

So that does not contradict equality, equality is that all life forms have the same value = they are part of life. The only thing that judges something as "better" or "more worthy" is the human mind.
We live in a world where we are limited, where one has to consume the other to live.
So taking all things in consideration, we can find out the best way possible to live together.

Right now, with this system, we are far from that.
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby rangeoshun » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:40 pm

I think what he means is for example:
An adult tall person will need more food then a smaller one.


Yes, for example, but we could go on and on. But thank you for explaining! I thought if here was talked about common sense this was in that category.

This rather inarticulate "comment" can only come from a perspective that is anti-human and savagely mean-spirited.


Stating a fact in this rather inarticulate manner was the last point when everybody has missed my points, but YOU are talking about this, I don't. It isn't anti-human, if YOU don't understand it as better or worth. Just different I mean, and as we are different, we might have the same kind of needs, but the quantity is different; the value is different for each and one of us, and that's a point to consider when you just blindly talk about Equality. Equal chances, equal rights, witch means human equality in law terms.

So as I see it, your just prejudice, most likely because you got a lot of shit to deal with in form of comments such as this. Or probably worth. Please just don't project.

No limits = Free Will which opens up doors for further abuse and corruption obviously.


Well, here my point would be, you simply can't build a better world, such as in your theory, if people do not want this. If you do not have free will, yes, you might never see that "door", and that's called dictatorship, but to have a better world you have to have free will to choose not to cross that door. And in a better world, you won't because it will not grant you any advantages, so you simply won't corrupt, because it would be stupid.

Suggest you participate here with the responsibility it is entailed within the nature of the topics we're discussing upon


Ok, than tell me where to read please about the working people and not working people difference, in terms of money. I have a serious problem with this part. And it's very important part.

And if there is a difference as Ann mentioned, there is a serious need for jobs to everyone. In case everyone decides to work. But I do not see how could that be, in respect to the technological progression we have now. And if you choose to "make up jobs", that means on some fields deliberately to not to use the machines we could, than you do not have efficiency, or better said you loose efficiency as you expand these fields. In this case, basically you withhold the better world, as you force people to work once more, just for different reasons as now. That's nowhere the optimal, except if you want to take free will. If you do you simply degrade people to a "happy machine" level. But know, that the free will you are not found of, is the one force that will change the world.
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:04 pm

rangeoshun wrote:
Yes, for example, but we could go on and on. But thank you for explaining! I thought if here was talked about common sense this was in that category.


Common Sense stands as What's Best for ALL in All Ways - thus your definition of 'common sense' is not really applied to such exemplification.

This rather inarticulate "comment" can only come from a perspective that is anti-human and savagely mean-spirited.


Stating a fact in this rather inarticulate manner was the last point when everybody has missed my points, but YOU are talking about this, I don't. It isn't anti-human, if YOU don't understand it as better or worth. Just different I mean, and as we are different, we might have the same kind of needs, but the quantity is different; the value is different for each and one of us, and that's a point to consider when you just blindly talk about Equality. Equal chances, equal rights, witch means human equality in law terms.


The fact that you want to preserve your 'difference/specialness/uniqueness in value' is quite evident - there is no 'different value' other than the one man has placed on to money which the human agrees to become. Quite astounding you are supporting an RBE and still have these thoughts, thanks for being an example of how Equality is obviously disregarded within your proposal of 'solution'.
It's not only in 'law terms', that's you wanting to preserve 'your point' which is unacceptable and NOT Equal in Fact.

Well, here my point would be, you simply can't build a better world, such as in your theory, if people do not want this. If you do not have free will, yes, you might never see that "door", and that's called dictatorship, but to have a better world you have to have free will to choose not to cross that door. And in a better world, you won't because it will not grant you any advantages, so you simply won't corrupt, because it would be stupid.


What's best for all IS what's best for all - this obviously implies that people 'Not wanting this' are obviously trying to preserve a way/ a door open to abuse and harm others, hence that's unacceptable - therefore free will exists in this world at this stage simply as a way to harm/abuse others and claiming it to be a 'human right' to do so.

What we are creating here is Not just 'theory', it's being lived and applied already at an individual level.

Ok, than tell me where to read please about the working people and not working people difference, in terms of money. I have a serious problem with this part. And it's very important part.


What is exactly your problem - full disclosure about the point so that we can clarify what requires to be clarified.

And if there is a difference as Ann mentioned, there is a serious need for jobs to everyone. In case everyone decides to work. But I do not see how could that be, in respect to the technological progression we have now. And if you choose to "make up jobs", that means on some fields deliberately to not to use the machines we could, than you do not have efficiency, or better said you loose efficiency as you expand these fields. In this case, basically you withhold the better world, as you force people to work once more, just for different reasons as now. That's nowhere the optimal, except if you want to take free will. If you do you simply degrade people to a "happy machine" level. But know, that the free will you are not found of, is the one force that will change the world.


The 'difference' Ann mentioned is not pushing aside Equality obviuosly, it's just mere design differences just as you are not 'the same' as me yet we are Equals as we are both human beings that require the basics to live - differences by design are merely that - yet that isn't 'opposing' Equality in any way.

If you understood the previous reply about Jobs, you should've understood by now that no one will force you to work besides the 4 years of your entire life that you will be giving your labor to the system in one of the sustainability/ maintenance activities.

We haven't said 'No' to technology, that's yet another assumption in fact. What's Best for ALL stands as the optimum level we as human beings as all living beings can coexist in this world -thus we'll use what's here to do so obviously. No one is talking about 'happiness' either, that's another assumption.

So, I'd say place your fears on writing with regards to jobs and we can clarify the points - the rest about 'free will 'has been explained. No abuse will be tolerated in here, hence the same applies within the EMS.
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby rangeoshun » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:55 am

uniqueness in value


NO! Missed to understand again. It is the "value" of things in respect to the individuals needs. So this is not for people, it's for peoples choices, to what to do whit their money. And that should be common sense ;) But to not to let your minds wonder, tampons almost worth nothing to me, but for a female fellow human being they might worth a lot more, if she prefers them obviously over other methods. This is not a mean joke this time, just simple fact.

What's best for all IS what's best for all - this obviously implies that people 'Not wanting this' are obviously trying to preserve a way/ a door open to abuse and harm others, hence that's unacceptable - therefore free will exists in this world at this stage simply as a way to harm/abuse others and claiming it to be a 'human right' to do so.


That's a rather miserable stand point of view. And cynical in fact.

What we are creating here is Not just 'theory', it's being lived and applied already at an individual level


If that would be true, there wouldn't be prejudice against domestic groups and such, but my point was, the system it self doesn't exist yet, not every point is ready to apply, and the most importantly, until we make it happen, and see where it goes, until than it's just a theory.

We haven't said 'No' to technology, that's yet another assumption in fact.


I didn't say you said no, but rather "if" you did, and why you should, if you want to give jobs to EVERYONE.

What is exactly your problem - full disclosure about the point so that we can clarify what requires to be clarified.


It's as follows. If you do not work, you'll get the basics, OK. But to have equal resources you have to work an equal amount. So you'll end up making something that's virtually meaningless /maintenance/, because you do something that a machine could do, and it would do a lot better. And that's the "FORCING" I talked about. And there has to be unlimited supply of jobs, or else, there is competition, and somebody will end up having less.
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Re: Paradise Cities are Not the Solution - Feedback

Postby Marlen » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:26 pm

rangeoshun wrote:NO! Missed to understand again. It is the "value" of things in respect to the individuals needs. So this is not for people, it's for peoples choices, to what to do whit their money. And that should be common sense ;) But to not to let your minds wonder, tampons almost worth nothing to me, but for a female fellow human being they might worth a lot more, if she prefers them obviously over other methods. This is not a mean joke this time, just simple fact.


That's a subjective system of values according to a set of personal preferences - that is obviously not seen within the basic consideration of Equality and it's in fact, irrelevant.

That's a rather miserable stand point of view. And cynical in fact.

You simply can't see then what we mean with what's Best for All thus you're in essence a threat to Equality.

If that would be true, there wouldn't be prejudice against domestic groups and such, but my point was, the system it self doesn't exist yet, not every point is ready to apply, and the most importantly, until we make it happen, and see where it goes, until than it's just a theory.

There is no such thing as prejudice here - obviously the system is not in place yet it begins with each individual. Thus it IS on the making.

I didn't say you said no, but rather "if" you did, and why you should, if you want to give jobs to EVERYONE.

That's a hypothetical irrelevant question you've created for yourself there.


If you do not work, you'll get the basics, OK. But to have equal resources you have to work an equal amount. So you'll end up making something that's virtually meaningless /maintenance/, because you do something that a machine could do, and it would do a lot better. And that's the "FORCING" I talked about. And there has to be unlimited supply of jobs, or else, there is competition, and somebody will end up having less.


Watch Equal Money & Self Sustainability: Forcing EQUALITY? (Part 2)

Equality Rant 22- Job Creation, Schmob Creation
And if you haven't done proper research on the Equal Labor point, then your question is made out of improper understanding of the entire proposal. This is Not about machines, this is about contributing to maintain/sustain a System Equally for ALL. Competition is based on survival, get it?
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